USB Bulk non è adatta all'audio?

7 Novembre 2024

Un consiglio ????

Ignorate bellamente chi estrapola queste frasi ---> bulk mode can not keep up with the strict timing required for continuous audio streaming....decontestualizzate per uno specifico problema che accadeva con una scheda RME UFX "se usata tramite interfaccia USB 3.0" (tre-punto-zero)

La stessa RME ha utilizzato il protocollo BULK sul modello UC Fireface e che funziona egregiamente tutt'ora su interfaccia USB 2.0

Oramai lo sappiamo tutti come opera il nostro amico no ????

I costruttori che hanno utilizzato la BULK l'hanno ottimizzata con uno specifico driver e...funzionava (e funziona)

Ho un ex collega che ne possiede una ed ha effettuato la comparazione di bit-perfect...non perde un colpo

7 Novembre 2024

...ecco la continuazione del "film" (che l'opener tiene nascosta e che mostra soltanto la parte che "interessa a lui"

Current Fireface UFX+ USB 3 Compatibility Information

Fully compatible to Intel's USB 3 implementation which - on current Windows and Mac
computers - is part of the chipset. USB 3 sockets that are connected via an internal cable
(not directly soldered onto the motherboard) can cause transmission errors (these are
shown in the Settings dialog).

Fully compatible to AMD's USB 3 implementation. USB 3 sockets that are connected via an
internal cable (not directly soldered onto the motherboard) can cause transmission errors
(shown in the Settings dialog).

Compatible to NEC / Renesas USB 3. Real-world performance and error-free operation
depend on the firmware version, driver version and the PCB layout of the respective extension card/motherboard.

Fully compatible to Fresco USB 3 chip.
Fully compatible to Via VL912, very often used in USB 3 hubs

ASMedia - not compatible
Etron EJ168A - not compatible
exas TUSB7340 - not compatible
Via VL800/805 - not compatible

The Fireface UFX+ is capable of using two different transmission modes to record data. The UFX+ defaults to Bulk Mode, which improves reliability of USB 3 audio tremendously and helps with both less than perfect cabling as well as critical layouts around the USB 3 chip. The standard’s default is Isochronous Streaming, which is unreliable as per the standard (errors are to be expected!), unreliable in real-world operation, and not correctly supported by popular USB 3 chips. In very seldom cases, bulk mode can not keep up with the strict timing required for continuous audio streaming. Then, to make the UFX+ work at all, isochronous mode must be used (but is still prone to clicks and drop-outs). To make the standard mode available as reference the Settings dialog includes an option to activate Isochronous Streaming.
The Fireface UFX+ also supports USB 2, where MADI record and playback channels are no
longer available (MADI can still be accessed via TotalMix FX). Good performance and click-free operation even at low buffer sizes are indeed possible on current computers.

However, using older computers a simple stereo playback might cause a CPU load of more than 30%.
Best USB 2 performance is achieved by connecting the UFX+ to its own bus, which should be no big problem as most USB 2.0 interfaces are a double bus design. A check in the

Device Manager can be done as follows:
Connect the UFX+ to a USB 2 port
Start the Device Manager, View set to Devices by Connection
Select ACPI x86-based PC, Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System, expand PCI Bus

This branch normally includes two entries of a USB2 Enhanced Host Controller. A USB Root Hub can be seen, which then connects all USB devices, including the UFX+. By reconnecting to a different port this view shows at which of the two controllers the UFX+ is connected. With multiple devices it can be checked if they are connected to the same controller. Further more this information can be used to operate an external USB drive without disturbing the UFX+, by simply connecting the drive to the other controller.
It can also be used to check where and in what combination USB 3 is used. In fact many modern motherboards have an additional chip to the mostly found Intel chipset, adding further USB 3 ports. But documentation is often unclear about which port/socket is connected to which chip.

By connecting the UFX+ and using the procedure above one can easily see the current connection, ensuring the UFX+ is really connected to the Intel chipset and not to some other flaky one.

Especially with notebooks, it can happen that all internal devices and all the sockets/ports are connected to the same controller, with the second controller not used at all. In that case all devices have to use the same bus and will interfere with each other.
A computer blocked for a short time – no matter if ASIO or WDM – will lose one or more data packets. Such problems can only be solved by increasing the buffer size (latency)

Outside of the Zoom units (well, and some Steinberg) I hadn't heard of any other USB issues on the current AMD chipsets and was starting to think we were in the clear. I guess there Isn't quite as many UFX+ owners out there, however.

The Elf is right, in that I guess I have seen it with a UFX and failed to recall it. He's running an Intel box through, so obviously a different chipset but possibly the same solution.

The odd thing in both instances is that the supported list above states that both are validated with it, so I guess it can be affected by other factors we might not be thinking about (BIOS versions, that kind of thing).

The solution for Elf's box from what I recall was PEXUSB3S4V as a drop-in card. It uses another approved chipset in the shape of the NEC/Renesys solution and sorted him right out.

https://www.startech.com/uk/Cards-Adapt ... PEXUSB3S4V

RRP is £50+ but street price is more like £35.

Pete Kaine
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Posts: 3174Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:00 amLocation: Manchester

Kit to fuel your G.A.S - https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/pro-audio

Re: USB audio glitches / errors caused by 5600 XT GPU?

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Post by Pete Kaine » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:51 pm

Will_m wrote:Whilst I've got you, are there any BIOS tweaks you'd recommend for the asrock x570 boards? So far I've done the following:

Disabled Bluetooth
Disabled Wifi
Enabled Thunderbolt
Changed Memory Profile to XMP 2.0 (I have the Ryzen optimized 3600 ram kit)
Disabled Onboard Audio

On Intel I know its recommended to disable stuff like speedstep, c-states etc but on the AMD board I can't find them. Guessing they go by another name?

7 Novembre 2024

E questo è il discorsetto di RME relativamente per il modello UC Fireface

La spiegazione è copiata dallo stesso manuale d'uso

USB Audio USB audio is in several ways different from PCI based audio interfaces. A Fireface UC can achieve a performance similar to a PCI or PCI Express card when used with an optimal PC. Low CPU load and click-free operation even at 48 samples buffer size are indeed possible on current computers. However, using older computers a simple stereo playback will already cause a CPU load of more than 30%. A computer blocked for a short time – no matter if ASIO or WDM – will loose one or more data packets. Such problems can only be solved by increasing the buffer size (and with this the latency). The Fireface UC features a unique data checking, detecting errors during transmission via USB and displaying them in the Settings dialog. Additionally the Fireface provides a special mechanism to continue recording and playback in spite of drop-outs, and to correct the sample position in real-time. Like any audio interface the Fireface UC should have a data transmission to the computer as undisturbed as possible. The easiest way to guarantee this is to connect it to its own bus, which should be no big problem as most USB 2.0 interfaces are a double bus design. A check in the Device Manager can be done as follows:

7 Novembre 2024

Oramai è come sparare sulla crocerossa....

7 Novembre 2024

1 hour ago, ilmisuratore said:

Un consiglio ????

Ignorate bellamente chi estrapola queste frasi ---> bulk mode can not keep up with the strict timing required for continuous audio streaming....decontestualizzate per uno specifico problema che accadeva con una scheda RME UFX "se usata tramite interfaccia USB 3.0" (tre-punto-zero)

La stessa RME ha utilizzato il protocollo BULK sul modello UC Fireface e che funziona egregiamente tutt'ora su interfaccia USB 2.0

Oramai lo sappiamo tutti come opera il nostro amico no ????

I costruttori che hanno utilizzato la BULK l'hanno ottimizzata con uno specifico driver e...funzionava (e funziona)

Ho un ex collega che ne possiede una ed ha effettuato la comparazione di bit-perfect...non perde un colpo

ma davvero e' solo questione di onesta intellettuale che io ho

7 Novembre 2024

Mi hai stufato

Ci hai stufati

Divertiti, ho cose piu importanti da fare

7 Novembre 2024

16 minuti fa, ilmisuratore ha scritto:

Mi hai stufato

Ci hai stufati

Divertiti, ho cose piu importanti da fare

Era ora 😁

7 Novembre 2024

43 minutes ago, ilmisuratore said:

Mi hai stufato

Ci hai stufati

Divertiti, ho cose piu importanti da fare

questa scheda PRO di acquisizione in bulk nel 2007 ha problemi poi di usb difatti del modelli successivi hanno integrato il doppio firmware :
bulk mode can not keep up with the strict timing required for continuous audio streaming. Then, to make the UFX III work at all, isochronous mode must be used (but is still prone to clicks and drop-outs). To make the standard mode available as reference the Set- tings dialog includes an option to activate Isochronous Streaming.

Ricordo anche che il dac della Rme e' UAC2 compliance

PS il doppio firmare lo ha anche la UC Fireface a quanto pare
c'era XP

7 Novembre 2024

7 minuti fa, Gustavino ha scritto:

PS il doppio firmare lo ha anche la UC Fireface a quanto pare

Ultima risposta, esaustiva (poi basta)

La RME UC Fireface funziona in modalità BULK tramite interfaccia USB 2.0 --> Punto e basta

Non presenta alcun problema --> Punto e basta

Riceve i pacchetti in bit-perfect --> Punto e basta

Qui sotto il descriptor della RME UC Fireface che dimostra che hai torto --> Punto e basta

Ogni tua successiva replica verrà ignorata --> Punto e basta

Informazioni per il dispositivo Fireface UC Win (23299035) (VID=0x0424 PID=0x3FC5):
Versione di TDD: 2.19.0 Data: 03/11/2024 14:40

Informazioni di connessione:
------------------------------

Stato della connessione: Dispositivo connesso
Velocità bus effettiva del dispositivo: Alta
Il dispositivo è un hub: No
Indirizzo dispositivo: 0x0006
Valore di configurazione corrente: 0x01
Numero di pipe aperte: 09

Descrittore dispositivo:
------------------------------

Valore Nome valore
0x12 bLength
0x01 bDescriptorType
0x0200 bcdUSB
0xFF bDeviceClass (specifico del fornitore)
0x00 bDeviceSubClass
0x00 bDeviceProtocol
0x40 bMaxPacketSize0 (64 byte)
0x0424 idVendor
0x3FC5 idProduct
0x0001 bcdDevice
0x01 iManufacturer (RME)
0x02 iProduct (Fireface UC Win (23299035)
0x03 iSerialNumber (BF3280SS05E29B9)
0x01 bNumConfigurations
Dump esadecimale:
0x12 0x01 0x00 0x02 0xFF 0x00 0x00 0x40 0x24 0x04
0xC5 0x3F 0x01 0x00 0x01 0x02 0x03 0x01

Qualificatore dispositivo Descrittore:
------------------------------

Valore Nome valore
0x0A bLunghezza
0x06 bDescriptorType
0x0200 bcdUSB
0xFF bDeviceClass (specifico del fornitore)
0x00 bDeviceSubClass
0x00 bDeviceProtocol
0x40 bMaxPacketSize0 (64 byte)
0x00 bNumConfigurations
0x00 bReserved
Dump esadecimale:
0x0A 0x06 0x00 0x02 0xFF 0x00 0x00 0x40 0x00 0x00

Descrittore di configurazione:
------------------------------

Valore Valuename
0x09 bLength
0x02 bDescriptorType
0x00FB wTotalLength
0x06 bNumInterfaces
0x01 bConfigurationValue
0x00 iConfiguration
0xC0 bmAttributes (dispositivo autoalimentato)
0x32 MaxPower (100 mA)
Dump esadecimale:
0x09 0x02 0xFB 0x00 0x06 0x01 0x00 0xC0 0x32

Descrittore interfaccia:
------------------------------

Valore Nome valore
0x09 bLunghezza
0x04 bDescriptorType
0x00 bInterfaceNumber
0x00 bAlternateSetting
0x04 bNumEndPoints
0xFF bInterfaceClass (specifico del fornitore)
0x00 bInterfaceSubClass
0x00 bInterfaceProtocol
0x00 iInterface
Dump esadecimale:
0x09 0x04 0x00 0x00 0x04 0xFF 0x00 0x00 0x00